083 – Deconstructing Parenthood (With Karl Forehand)

Hello, everyone, and welcome to the reckless pursuit. My name is Cody and my name is Elaine and this is episode 83. And today we are talking with Carl forehand author of a parent faith. We had a great conversation with Carl about all things his deconstruction journey, how it impacted his family life, just the growth and how he came to realize his kids already shared some of the same views as him but were to just I guess, nervous to share their original views that they had with him because of his time in ministry. He goes on to talk about just some of his life experiences and how through deconstruction, it’s actually gave him a new perspective of who God is to him. So this is a great conversation and we thoroughly enjoyed it. And just as a pre runner, you can grab Carl’s book in the show notes below,

Elaine Johnston 2:13
actually really liked this conversation with Carl, because when it comes to deconstruction, we always talk about the internal experiences and the internal questions. But we rarely ever talk about how that affects our relationships and those around us specifically with family. And so I think just really this conversation highlights that.

Cody Johnston 2:32
Yeah, so before we get into this conversation real quick, we asked that if you get something out of this, share this episode on with a friend, word of mouth is the best way to spread anything and we want as many people in on this conversation as possible. And if you have not done so, so far, there is a group just for you called nomads, a safe community for Christians to ask unsafe questions. We strive to create vide an atmosphere where people can come together and talk about deconstruction doubts, what God’s doing in their lives and just kind of coming together to to be a solid community the something that we all need. So if you would like to be a part, we invite you to join on the conversation, head down to the show notes below. Click that link and ask to join. We would love to have you. So let’s get right to this conversation with Carl forehand, author of a parent faith. Alright, everyone, welcome to the reckless pursuit We are here with Carl forehand, author of a parent faith Carl, how are you

Karl Forehand 3:37
doing? Good, how are you

Cody Johnston 3:39
doing very well. So Carl, I just want to just jump right into this share with everyone here just to maybe a little bit of where you’ve come from in your background and kind of just up to speed on maybe what got you into writing and what kind of spurred on your writing. Yeah,

Karl Forehand 3:57
I was raised in a The man is evangelical home, really my mom more than my dad pushed us to go to church and kept us there and went to private Christian School for several years. That’s where I learned to steal and costs. And then I went to move to a small town just wanted to get out of there as fast as I could went through the typical rebellion and so on. But when I decided to kind of come back to church, back to my religion, I found the thing that was easiest for me, I found a lot of rejection in my life. And, and, and so it became a big deal to fit in. And I wanted to fit in wherever I was, so that I got back into a religion of the system that I was comfortable with. And that that made it easy to fit in and, and belong somewhere. And also let this maybe what I would consider an hour good theology, and grounding in my life, spent some time as a computer programmer and did those things for about nine years. And then, for whatever reason, decided, I was called to the ministry and jumped in both feet. That was at the time of y2k, where I could make a lot of money as a computer programmer, but really felt the call to be a pastor. And this, you know, there’s something about the love of Christ, and things like that. Today, I wanted to share with people on kind of that Instagram type that it has to tell people about what he knows about and so on. So that appealed to me. But a church planter gave me some advice, I don’t think I don’t know if it’s good or bad. But he said, what you want to do is as a church planter, as revitalizing the small town churches, is just go in and fit in. And so there that that that goes perfect with our band, and I, I did everything I could to fit into those small towns and kind of even became famous for, you know, moment church planning community of, you know, Carl can go into any situation and fit in, you know, fits and so for about, you know, 17 years or so did that, as a Bible occasional pastor, my career also kind of slowly took off, or I was making quite a bit of money. So two different worlds and two different things that I was trying to fit into. But eventually, I got to a point where there were beliefs that I was trying to defend that I was having a harder time defending.

We’ve changed our health practices to be more plant based and finding ridicule, even for that. And, and that was a surface issue, that was a small thing, that didn’t matter too much. But we also, you know, began to investigate practice is like, like yoga and meditation and some things like that. And I always say we, a lot of times it was me and kind of dragging along for the ride. But it just got to a point where I remember Laura and I were walking down the street, and I’m, I just said to her, I can’t do this anymore. I can’t keep dancing around these issues, I’ve gotta, I gotta figure some of this stuff out, I’ve got to investigate some of a deeper and eventually retire from the church where replanting and restarting and took some time off, eventually, you know, through some of the things I described in the book led to, you know, Brian’s on and, and William Paul Young, and in some of those, those people in books by Brad jersey, and people like that, and just began to, I guess, kind of deconstruct our faith, and rebuild from there, and we’re still in that process. But the book then is an incident all of I want people to know what it feels like, you know, I didn’t want to argue theology and, and so on. And but I wanted them to go with me on my journey from my kind of unique perspective as, as a pastor, but then tie that is a father, Paul Young’s book, the lies we believe about God, and the movie, the shack kind of got me thinking about that. If you remember the Sofia scene, in the wisdom scene, and whether in the cave and the shack, and he says, you know, which one of your children could you will you condemn? And he said, I can’t. And, and that was literally the lens I took to write my book is, is to, to look at a being a parent, and how I raised my children and the things I thought about things I wrestle with. And, and, and a lot of cases, that brought me to a kind of a conclusion that if, if I’m going to stick with this belief system I have, then God, my be worse than me. He’s got a worse temper than me. He’s able to condemn his children when I can’t condemn mine. So that just began a period of wrestling. And really, the book was just therapy for me to get that out. Yeah. And let it all kind of flow out. Took a month off from work and, and debt. And I’m really, really proud of and it’s, it’s what I want to say, it’s what I hope people can hear. And I hope they hear my heart. And so that’s kind of where I’m at now.

Cody Johnston 9:33
Very cool. You said something just a second here that really stood out to me. And you were saying you didn’t want to argue theology, you just wanted to relate how that feels? And how like deconstruction or questioning anything how that feels. And I just want to kind of like, just touch on that for a second. Because I feel like one of the biggest struggles whenever you start questioning things is, well, for so long, you had a theology built up that you can defend, right? We’re trained and in church to defend our theology were trained on Oh, well, this is the point you say toward this question. Like, even inadvertently, sometimes we’re just we’re given these buzzwords or like specific statements that help us defend our faith. And then when you start deconstruction, you lose all of that. And a lot of times people ask you, well, what do you believe about this? Or Well, what’s your new belief on this? And more often than not, I know, in maybe in my situation in like, just a few as a witness, like accounts I have is, it’s not really, you don’t really have the answer a lot. And that’s kind of the whole point. And so when people ask me, Well, what do you believe it almost makes you kind of retract into your shell a bit? Because you don’t have an answer, you just know that what you used to feel isn’t right, and it doesn’t sit right with your spirit. So what are some of those things that maybe some of those initial reactions that you had, or maybe some of those initial beliefs that kind of spurred on a bit of your deconstructing of your, your previous beliefs? What were some of those beliefs? And then maybe, what do you have to say, just kind of offer encouragement to people who don’t want to argue theology just like you who want to focus more on just pulling through this emotionally?

Karl Forehand 11:12
Yeah. And so probably one of the things that I couldn’t wait to get out, it’s, I think it’s even in the introduction, or the first chapter that my view of hell and and you’re right, we have to have in evangelicalism, we have to have a certainty. And so then when you move to a place of vulnerability, we we have to say, I don’t know, I’m okay with that. Right now. I’m just really look back at when in my beliefs form. And if they started, when I was seven years old, when I walked down the aisle, or whatever, you know, did I was able to form my own beliefs then? Or was it from now that was passed on? And then I farm this certainty and in, in seminary, and so on, and I was committed to that and committed to defending it. But then I think, yeah, the first piece that kind of started to come off was my view of how, you know, it can, can I and with the shack, and all those things that, that went into that, that was the first thing to kind of kind of reconsider is, is, is, you know, could God, you know, how can God be loving and merciful and compassionate, and pictured as a father pictured as a mother also. But picture as a father, I couldn’t, I just no longer could believe that. And that was kind of the first thread and the sweater that kind of pulled away. But then other things started to fall pretty fast. And that one of them was, is God in control, you know, and, and Thomas Jr. has a book out called God can’t right now. It’s a fascinating book. Some of those books still, even Paul Young book, the lies, we believe that God still, I still wrestle with them, you know, into how much of that? And again, it’s it’s certainly an uncertainty and vulnerability, but is God and control, you know, does this he control us and in in for me, I looked at it through the lens of my of my Parenthood, my daughters, my teenage daughters occasionally would say to me, what are you doing, Dan? I’d say I’m trying to help. And they’d say, you’re not helping? No, you’re not helping. Because we’re trying to control this situation. And we’re trying to work through it, we need to work through it. And we got it. You know, we may make some mistakes. But you said you’d still love us. Right? No matter what we do. So we’re going to work through this. Well. Another one was is you know, God is good. Right? I don’t know if you’ve ever been in a church where you say, God is good all the time. And all the time?

Unknown Speaker 14:00
Yeah.

Karl Forehand 14:02
When I, when I took that, in that chapter, when I took it back through, you know, raising my child, my children. Yeah, I was good initially, because I ease the comfort of a dirty diaper, and put food in there. And actually, Laura, that all that I but I want, yeah, observe, you know, and then I kept the nightlight on for them, we we confronted them a nice or we were good because of that. When move further down the road, then no, I help them with some things they were going through and comforted them. When they’re teenagers. Basically, if I gave them the keys of the car, or help them find their sneakers, you know, or gave them a little money, then I was good, right? And you’ve seen people on Facebook saying, Well, my my dad is awesome, right? And it’s because he just gave him the keys of the car or bottom a new car, or now help them find the shoes. Otherwise, they’re in their room. And so that is good. God is good. And so if we’re still kind of chanting that in our churches, then then what we’re saying is God just gave me the keys the car, so I like him right now. But But God is really good in relationship. And he’s good. Because of that. were created from relationship and for relationship were created from that that relationship with the Father, Son spirit, were created for relationship with him with others. And that’s the part that’s good, is that he does what I want. And I that’s, that’s where my frustration comes these days is in our language around prayer. You know, did I get what I want? I find out what I want. God is good. was God still good if I didn’t get what I want? You know? So all of those those things I just Russell with through the lens through two lenses really, that God is like Jesus is exactly like Jesus is always, you know, like Brian’s answers is always been like Jesus, but also then, you know, through the lens of me being a parent, and the play on words in the title, apparent faith, right? So some people say kind of in criticism of the book, they said, Well, are you saying you’re a good parent? No, I’m not saying I’m saying a mediocre parent at best. And I got to write the book. So the story I tell about myself is probably the best light. But I’m not saying I’m a great parent, I’m saying I’m a mediocre parent. But God has to be better than me. If we’re going to parent lens for him, right or her. Right? It’s got to be better than me kind of have can’t have a worse temper than me. Can’t more of a derivative than I am. He’s got to be restorative, you know? And so those are the things you know, I don’t know if I answered your question, I kind of went down.

Cody Johnston 16:56
I know, I believe you did.

Elaine Johnston 16:58
Yeah. So something I actually want love talking about this and reflecting on just who God is, throughout my life, and just really in the past 10 years of my life of where my faith is kind of transitioned and, and believing who God was when I was a teenager, and and throughout college, and then now, and something that I’m realizing is who God who, who God is to me 10 years ago, or five years ago or a year ago is not who he is to me now. And so, I guess my question for you is, with all of these things, you’ve kind of rethought and, and deconstructed and question Who is God to you now then who he was maybe 10 years ago.

Karl Forehand 17:39
But one of the chapters that Lauren, I can’t, still can’t read without crying as when we talked about our, our grandson, Jackson was, he was born eight weeks premature. And when it was a it was an interesting situation, when it was born is just tiny sis little bitty, you know, Nick, you and I were standing over him. And I had I had memorized Bob Dylan’s, the slow version of Forever Young. And I was going to recite that to him, and I couldn’t, I couldn’t get it out. so emotional. And I looked across, and my daughter and my son in law, and I see kind of the helpless look in their eyes in them, of what are we supposed to do? Now? You know, I remember taking my son home and putting him in the middle of floor going, what am I supposed to do? Well, this is a whole different deal for my daughter and her husband. And I remember looking a member of fighting the urge to run out of the room and go What the hell God, you know, and I remember, you know, fighting all those emotions, but the almost the, just the flop, and in my view of God from that, whatever I thought God was before that moment, help me cement in this, this idea that God, God is the God that sets with me in that. And God is the God that is with me in those things. And God’s the God that Christ with me. And then AQ, just still today, I can’t read that chapter without without getting emotional. But God is God is the God. That that’s with me. And that’s enough. Yeah. And the rest of it. I’m still trying to understand, you know, but but I start from that core of making enough space for God to be with me not having to, to orchestrate him to orchestrate me, however, I think he should orchestrate me. But it’s just just to realize that he’s with me. Yes.

Cody Johnston 19:47
Yeah, that’s good. You’re making me get emotional, I know, your entire heart, everything you’ve poured out is based on understanding God through the lens of a parent. So let me ask you this, how has your relationship with your own children change? Was there any I mean, because I can imagine we don’t have kids. And so I’m basing this is purely speculative. So feel free to correct me anywhere, I’m wrong, but I can imagine, there would almost be some, I don’t know, guilt or fear. Like, I know how I feel like thinking about raising a child, as exciting as it is, to me when that time comes. For us. It’s also terrifying, because it’s like, this is a human being like, I mean, that’s what every parent goes through. It’s like, I have to try to do it. Yeah, well, that too. But instill in them like, all of the the values of like trying to be at, you know, that the example of Christ showing love trying to, you know, teach them all these things. And so as you’ve went through, and I could be off on your point, but of when you started kind of changing some of your philosophies and stuff. But was there ever a point where like, you started shifting these and you had to explain to your children, hey, like, I kind of view things a little differently now than maybe you were taught? or How did some of those those conversations go? Was there any tension with that? Or was it? Was it a beautiful moment? Just Do you mind sharing a little bit of that?

Karl Forehand 21:06
Yeah. So one of the things that I explained in the book that I think is in the first chapter, is where a lot of my deconstruction started was this encounter at the AI hub, where all my adult children, we somehow got them all together at the same time, and we had breakfast, may think maybe it was at night, but we have breakfast together, that I have, because it was just a comforting place, and comfort food and the best time to have breakfast is at night. So So all three of my have a picture of them in not in the book, but I have a picture of them that I have, they were sitting across from me and my wife and I were on this side. And they they were talking politics or something we never talked politics or religion because I was a pastor and their pastors kids and but they all they love politics and so on now. And they were I think they were talking politics. But one thing I realized is, is all of a sudden they were teaching me something. And in the the only the few things I think I did right and raising them. Number one is I focused on that verse, don’t exasperate your children. And that was Laura would say you’re going too far, dude, you know, my daughter to say, you’re not helping, you know, and try not to exasperate them to lose the relationship. But the other thing was that we, we try to teach them to think for yourself, you know, I said, this is, you know, this is I’m a pastor, I have this certain DNS belief system, but you, you have to have your own beliefs. So we tried to teach them to think for themselves, we tried to teach them, I try and teach my girls especially to be brave. And, and so then I found myself and I have gone well, at least this happened, that they’re mature and their things thinking for themselves, and they’re actually in in inspiring me probably be more compassionate, to think of God a little different. And, and especially in their politics was how is coming out. So. So it’s funny, then, you know, maybe a few months later, we’re getting a little further down the road, and we’re going, we’re going to change some of our beliefs. I set my girls down my son’s in Taiwan, teaching English, but we set them down on the porch, and I said, this nice wants to know, I’m changing some five ways and believing in the less violent gun, or more sort of gone so on. And they just kind of looked at me like we’ve we’ve been waiting for you, dad. Yeah.

My daughter.

You know, and so they’re like, there’s no shock in their eyes. It’s just kind of like, you know, we’ve, we’ve been waiting for you. Thanks for, you know, we’re glad you’re alone. Right now. We’ve been there for a while, you know, that was that was exciting, and refreshing. But, but certainly, you know, you can’t, you can’t control your children. Right? That you have, you have to just do what you can to nurture them, and encourage them. And I think I dealt with that a lot in the book a little bit that God God encourages us God, right? You remember that quote from Bob Goff the love, love does and remember the most recent one, but in it, he says it, there’s a quote, there’s a famous quote, you can find it really easy. He said, really the the job of a parent, I think he says father, job of a father is not to plan out a rigid itinerary for his children. The job of a father is to lean over his children and say, What do you want to do today? Let’s go do that together. It was real hokey the way we probably did it, like team forehand or something like that, you know, that now they kind of shrug it off, and so on. But I think in the long run, they appreciate it. We’re in this together. I don’t know the desires of your heart wants you to be a doctor because I want you to be a doctor, I want you. My daughter just developed a desire to be a nurse early on. So we’re going to do everything we can to help you and make me say be brave and keep going and don’t don’t stop trying and things like that.

Elaine Johnston 25:25
Yeah, that’s good. I love just the beauty of that story and the reunion and just coming together with your kids and, and like your kids didn’t view you as like, judgmental. They were just like, we were expecting this and it was just a matter of time. And I think that’s how God views us. Whenever we have questions or doubts or come to realizing his true character. And God’s like, hey, like, I knew you would come back like, let’s do this. Let’s go take on the day. I I just love that.

Cody Johnston 25:55
Yeah, and, and something else you were just saying is about one of my biggest. I don’t know what it is. It’s not a revelation. I don’t know. Just this biggest like wordplay I guess is like I’ve always been told God has a plan for you. God has a plan for you. God has a plan for you. And that always scared the mess out of me. Because I’m like, for sure. Whenever, whenever if God has an itinerary for my life, if I miss one little thing like, oh, crud, the whole schedules out the window like I have, like botched it is what it is either. Exactly right. I’m having to it’s like a scratches Do you have to scratch off the next thing or decide for the next clue. And one of my biggest things was like realizing that God has a purpose. For every soul for every life, he has a purpose for me. But no matter what, it’s kind of the whole scenario, you’re in a room, there’s a bunch of doors, right? We talked about this, my analogy all the time in church was like, Oh, well, you’re just waiting on God to open the right door. And I was like, I’m spending my whole life waiting on a door. And then I realized, if I just pick one and walk through it, they all lead to the same room. Right? Everything leads to the same room there is in this weird shell game God is playing with us. And so I love what you were saying there. Because that’s like, a personal struggle I have dealt with in life is feeling like, at any time, like I’m going to make the wrong decision. And then I love what you’re saying about your daughter’s like she’s showed interest in being a nurse and she was young. And so you’re like, yeah, we’re gonna let her pursue that we’re going to grow with her in that. I feel like that’s how God is with us. He’s like, Hey, you show this passion. Like, I put that seed in you like that’s, that’s, that’s in you that’s created, I want to cultivate that Oh, like, you feel like you’re changing seasons, you’re going to go do this now. That’s cool. I support that. I just I love that. So

Karl Forehand 27:35
right. Now we started to go through middle school, which

I termed as hell.

Especially with my daughters, because I didn’t understand anything they were going through. Laura would encourage me and just say just, you know, just endure, you’re going to be okay. We’re going to get I don’t know, because I don’t stand anything. And then they did about the time they became human beings, again, they moved down. And all that. So whatever rosy picture I’ve painted in the book, you know, there was still struggles? Yeah, yeah. You know, it’s just, you know, it’s maybe it boils down to mostly a failure to communicate. My youngest daughter, Lily, certainly stray, which is, you know, something I may not have, I probably don’t have to do with God. Right. So the analogy doesn’t always hold true. But, but it’s about communication. It’s about listening. And those kind of things. Yeah.

Cody Johnston 28:38
So how does someone and I just kind of going back to the story of even the NCI you? How does someone take this God who they’ve always seen as more distant or vengeful? And what are some, like, ways that you can almost understand God is loving? Or how do you? How do you even make that mental shift? Because I feel like a lot of people want to be that, but just some of the structures we have in place, keep us from that. And so what are some mental practices or just some, some new ways to just kind of try to meditate on to help God See, or to kind of come to understand God is more of a loving parent versus like this distant Puppet Master, I guess, for lack of better terms.

Karl Forehand 29:20
Yeah. So. So our old advice was read your Bible study, pray more, you know, do more, serve more and so on. I find it mostly and doing less now, that two months that I was off work, never been off work for two months in my life, to just sit of discovering center, centering prayer, and some, some meditation I still haven’t settled on my practice of Bennett word of Life Church for Brian’s on for a couple years and, and just sit in the audience for a while. And he teaches a pretty school that’s a little more liturgical, and helpful. But But I find right in the middle of his prayer liturgy is that he calls it setting with Jesus. And some people call it centering prayer, but just just some, some guided meditation, some centering prayer, quite an s really about doing, you know, when I give myself permission to not do anything and not think about anything. Just be Yeah. And so that, that that’s teaching me, I think, how to walk with God more effectively.

Cody Johnston 30:36
That’s good. And kind of in that same vein is kind of like when you’re going through these mental shifts. You had said like the old, the old way is read your Bible more, pray more. I think you just kind of answered really well about kind of what prayer looks like. But what does reading your Bible look like when you start having these questions? Because I feel like most of the time you open it, it’s just part of it. It’s like, Oh, I feel like I need to still believe this and the other like, how do you get rid of those lenses that you used to read through? And how important do you read your Bible every day? Do you read it every week? Are you sending it?

Karl Forehand 31:11
Yeah, I’d say Laura and I are still wrestling with those things. Number one is going to church. Number two is reading my Bible. You know, I like Brian’s John’s analogy of the Bible is the soil of which our faith grows. In the in the book, I make the comment that I’m not trying to prove the Bible anymore. I’m trying to discover Jesus. So he’s still Jesus is still compelling to me. The way of Christ is compelling to me. And I said, I don’t know if I have an answer for you. That I think the elect Lecter Divina, Matt, you know, that method of just slowing, slowing, way, way, way, way down. If we’re going to read the Bible, unless let’s let’s way down, listen to God. More, right, maybe read less. But I’d say that that’s still a work in progress for me. Yeah.

Elaine Johnston 32:11
Yeah. I love that. Just your honesty of like, I don’t exactly know what that looks like, I’m still searching for that for myself. And I think a lot of times in in deconstruction, we realize it’s not about coming to an answer. It’s about coming to Jesus and really walking with God. And it’s okay to not have all the answers, because that was the problem in the first place. of you are trying to have all these answers. And you were trying to pull answers from all these different people and you like, we’re understanding who God was for yourself. And so I just, I appreciate that honesty of just saying like, I don’t know, I don’t know what that looks like, I’m, I’m trying different things. But I think that’s just important. For our listeners of It’s okay, if you don’t know,

Karl Forehand 32:56
it’s hard for me, because Laura will ask me a question. In what she’s wanting to know is what do you think? Right? And I, and I’ll start explaining and trying to come up with a conclusion, then I’m right in the middle of it, I end up saying, You know what, I don’t know. But but it’s been a thing. It’s been freeing to say that’s okay. paradox, there’s some both an instead of either or, and those kind of things. And there’s there’s some uncertainty. And really, that’s okay. This is a long journey. It’s a lifelong journey. And it’s, it’s not. We’re not to figure it all out tomorrow. Yeah, it’s really freeing. And I and I don’t feel, you know, last are for that, you know, I mean, I don’t I don’t feel like I’m, I’m losing the battle, or I’m last or I’m less spiritual, more spiritual. You know, I’m so sad. I don’t know. And that’s okay. For once. That’s okay.

Cody Johnston 33:55
That’s really, that’s really good. I think that’s probably one of the biggest struggles with questioning anything. It’s just coming to that point of being okay. And realizing, not having the answer doesn’t make you less Christian doesn’t make you less spiritual. Does it make you loved by God less? And that’s just that’s wonderful. So Carl, we like to sum things up here, with instead of asking you a final question, allowing you to ask the audience a final question, whoever’s listening right now. So say, There’s someone sitting across from you right now. And they’re reading through your book, and they’re struggling to see God as this loving figure in their lives. And so what question would you ask them about their life in relationship with God to help them understand his love for them?

Karl Forehand 34:40
One of the chapters, I talked about darkness and shadow, and it’s about encountering our shadow and being compassionate towards the inner child. And so I think I would ask people to, to ask their, their inner self and inner child to say, you know, when you look into that child’s eyes, as that child’s looking up to a parent, what does that child think I want you to forget about all your religious training, and all the people who are going to judge you for what you say, and the people who are going to make fun of you, and you’re not going to fit in and all those adult things that we think about, go back to that inner child and ask him, ask him what it’s like to trust and love. And to just be Yeah, you know, and, and, and look into that child’s eyes and tell him as an adult, I’ve got your back, I can cover you, you know, no one’s gonna hurt you. No one’s gonna make fun of you look in that child’s eyes the same, same. What was it like, when I could just be authentic? And that’s how, you know nuts. That’s how I want to for the rest of my life relate to my my Heavenly Father, Mike, you know, that relate to the divine? Is, is I want to be like that little boy that was authentic. And real. Yeah. So that’s your question. No, absolutely.

Cody Johnston 36:12
That was very, very well put, Carl, your book is available everywhere apparent faith, what is the best place to find your book songs want to pick up a copy of it?

Karl Forehand 36:21
Well, they say wherever books are sold. I don’t think that means Amazon. But pretty darn Amazon, Barnes and Noble. choir, the publishers QUOIR. Think. And they have a landing page for the book. That’s really nice. It should it gives us five page preview of the book. I mean, five chapter preview has a video, introductory video for it that we recorded. It’s got bullet points to what the books and balance. It’s a great, great landing page. But it’s just choir.com You can find it if you have a choir publishing with a que You know, I’m in Carl’s coaching is me Carl with a K. So that that website has my blog, and podcasts and everything. And, you know, if you find me on Facebook, it’s it’s probably kind of annoying how much I talk about the book right now. So you won’t have any trouble finding it. But the main place your Amazon, you know, is the main thing. Yeah,

Cody Johnston 37:29
very cool. And I have the choir link, and we’ll get an Amazon link. And I’ll be sure to link to Carl’s coaching. And whatever social media you are mostly I know, for your active on Facebook, or through any others, we can catch up after this call. And I’ll be sure to include all of those in the show notes. So wherever you’re listening to this, you’ll have direct links to all of what Carl has going. And I encourage everyone to go check it out. Carl, thank you for your honesty, your authenticity, and just being willing to share the emotion behind all of this. I really appreciate it.

Karl Forehand 37:59
My pleasure. Thanks for having me on.

Cody Johnston 38:01
Once again, Carl, thank you so much for taking the time to sit down and have this conversation with us. I know many parents who are going through their own doubts will also benefit from your message. I know, many children will so benefit just knowing that it’s okay to have those doubts. And I just thank you for sharing your story. And if you’re looking to pick up a copy of his book, listen to Carl’s podcast get connected with him. You can find him all what he does links to his his book and his website and his podcast in the show notes below and we invite you to go down there, click that link and show Carl some love. We love every single one of you guys, we thank you for the positive ratings. We thank you for the comments. Thank you for the engagement on social media. We are available and we would love for you to hit us up you can find us a nomads you can find us at the reckless pursuit calm. All of our social media links are there and we look forward to connecting with all of you and if you haven’t done so, so far, go over there. click that little rating box and give us an honest review. That’s how we know how to keep improving and what you guys love and what you guys want going forward. And as always be brave, be bold and be reckless. We’ll talk soon