106 – Did Jesus Deconstruct His Faith? (A conversation recorded while we were hiking)

Elaine Johnston 1:24
Hey, everyone, welcome to the reckless pursuit.

Cody Johnston 1:27
My name is Elaine and my name is Cody

Elaine Johnston 1:29
and you’re listening to Episode 106

Cody Johnston 1:33
Yes, this episode is technically our two year anniversary. So we’ve passed 100 now we’ve past two years and we can’t thank you guys enough for being along on the ride with us. This episode is special and what I mean by special I mean that it’s filmed off location outside of our studio. This is a conversation Elaine and I actually had while we were hiking not too long ago, just a just a couple weeks ago. ago actually, and we clicked on our phones and started to record because we enjoyed the conversation we were having we talked about some interesting stuff like Jesus’s deconstruction and language dropping some truth bombs about deconstruction and not wanting to live in a rotting house. There was even some stuff in there about being on the same wavelength as other people and how being of the same mind and being in the same spirit on the same thing, it just is. This is a really interesting episode. So you’re going to hear us gasping for air a little bit more than normal. You’re going to hear us crunching through the leaves and a lot of water and Doppler eating random plants.

Elaine Johnston 2:36
Basically, it’s gonna be an ASMR audio.

Cody Johnston 2:39
It’s not that bad. I feel like I did a pretty good job of reducing a lot of those salaries.

Elaine Johnston 2:43
But honestly, I feel like we should do more of these types of episodes.

Cody Johnston 2:48
Yeah, it was a really fun episode. I feel like it’s more like it’s not that our episodes aren’t authentic by any means. But like it’s even more authentic because you’re just walking and talking in nature and like connected with creation. So Guys we would love to hear what you feel about this episode so feel free to reach out just go over there asked to be a part of nomads a safe community for Christians to ask unsafe questions you can get a link to that in the show notes that we would honestly and sincerely love to hear your thoughts on this episode. So let’s strike up a conversation and we’re about to get right into this but real quick, we have a brand new hot off the press review that we would like to read you real quick. So Elaine, go ahead.

Elaine Johnston 3:29
So this one is from Jay tourney and the title is I’m along for the ride. I found the reckless pursuit podcasts like I found most of the others I listened to. I heard Cody and Elaine interview on another podcast that I listened to. I love their openness, their honesty and the overall joy that they speak from. I love the topics they are engaging and ask us to come along for the ride. I cannot suggest their podcast more.

Cody Johnston 3:57
Jay thank you so much for taking The time to leave their review guys, if you want to hear your review read on air. And if you want to help out listeners passing by, be sure to go over there, wherever you’re listening and leave an honest review that helps everyone coming by to know what the show is all about. And we delight in reading what you guys have to say. Alright, so let’s get to this crunchy audio about us walking through the woods and talking about deconstruction, what it’s like being at this for two years. And Jesus is deconstruction. A lot of other stuff. This episode is just jam packed full of goodness. So where were we

Elaine Johnston 4:38
Okay, so we were talking about deconstruction, and asking questions and why is it scary?

Cody Johnston 4:45
Yeah. And so like, what was it what you just said let’s just kind of start with that, again.

Elaine Johnston 4:50
How a lot of people are afraid to look within or a lot of people are afraid to see the problems. They cover it up. I had said that I would not want to live in a rotting house. Or if there was a hole in my floor, I wouldn’t just cover it up with a rug. I would go fix it, I would go see what’s wrong, I would see what caused it, and then build back up from there.

Cody Johnston 5:13
And I love that because like, if you have a face that’s so weak that you can’t ask a question, or you can’t poke and prod at it, then most likely, like that’s kind of the epitome to me of like a castle, building your house upon the sand. Right?

Elaine Johnston 5:28
Well, that scripture

Cody Johnston 5:29
like that. Yeah, that’s not saying like the whole, like, build your house on a rock, build your house on the sand like sometimes faith you have to be able to tear it down and build it back up. If you have a house built on the sand. Every time any little wave we can call those waves doubts. We can call them fears. We can call them contradictions struggle or Yeah. Then it washes away at the core of what your faith is right like it was Is away your foundation you’re left with nothing and or even more so you can say inner roads is slowly erodes away until you’re constantly patching it I guess is the way to say like you’re constantly having to rebuild rebuild rebuild put patches, fix this area fix that area. And I think a lot of times we use that scripture of like oh if you have any kind of little thing like it comes and knocks away at your face you’re you know, you’re at the you’re built on a on sand or whatever your face will be unshakable like a rock. But I think what it’s actually saying, to me at least, is that when those things come if you can’t be comfortable in knowing that when the waves hit, you know, you’re safe. And you’re okay with that you’re okay with those doubts those questions. You’re not like you get them saying like, sooner or later things erode.

Elaine Johnston 6:50
And you can also use that for like, love having a patchwork heart and just because there has been hurt Just because there has been healing done are things that we need to overcome emotionally. That doesn’t mean we stop loving. It doesn’t mean stop loving ourselves or other people are loving God.

Cody Johnston 7:13
So let me ask you this you like, our friend just texted us and asked us what does it mean? Because like this whole thing we’re going into now that we’re in the one hundreds is that we are going to try to be way more. Not just intentional, but try to give answers. So not just be solution, or not just like to have solutions to things. Yeah. And solutions a loaded word. Yeah. Because when you’re dealing with faith, deconstruction, reconstruction, all the solutions look different depending on who you are. Mm hmm. I think that a lot of times we can kind of get caught up in the idea of like waiting to find the answer, but there’s just not a lot of answers. But in the same sense, how do we be more solution focused in something that is so Hard to be solution focus, you know, I’m saying Yeah, like, what does that look like as we move forward? How can we do those things?

Elaine Johnston 8:08
Well, for one, obviously, it needs to be less about like, talking about a problem. And like you said, finding something that we can take and run with, how can we do this better. And, again, like you said, that looks different for every person. And I feel like just allowing people to share their personal solutions to the problem, allowing people to share their heart without judgment without criticism, because everyone has a different life. Everyone has a different spiritual journey, different challenges and struggles that they face. And so that solution is going to look different to everyone. But at the same time, just allowing people to freedom to have their own solution, and not being afraid of trying different solutions.

Cody Johnston 8:57
Right. A big thing for me in all of this is Trying to be aware. Mm hmm. And a lot of times this solution, and we’ve discussed this a little bit earlier, but like just trying to be more understanding of people’s beliefs that are different than me, then maybe you’re aware I once was, or maybe it’s a perspective, I just don’t understand

Elaine Johnston 9:19
or haven’t been to yet.

Cody Johnston 9:20
Yeah. And I feel like that is a big problem with people who go through deconstruction is not people not having that understanding with them. Yeah. It can be lonely. And so what happens is, we get super set in our ways, because we’re always on the defense. That’s why so many people going through doubt, or deconstruction, or whatever form that’s taking have to feel like they need to hide it. They feel like they have to keep it to themselves because as soon as it comes out in the open, everyone starts questioning. Yeah. Some people because of religion. Others because of genuine compassion because it goes against what they’ve always been taught or their personal beliefs. And they’re scared. The natural reaction to that is to go on the defensive. And I just want like, to help people understand that the defensive isn’t a good place to live. Yeah. Because that’s, that is lack of vulnerability. Yeah. And in essence, like, love is vulnerability and now I know there’s boundaries to that, but always also that disclaimer in there, like healthy boundaries are healthy and all that but I just think that it’s easy to kind of go on that defensive rant where you are no longer willing to meet anyone where they’re at. And in essence, that just creates deconstruction or anti deconstruction and re ends up just becoming as dividing barrier where we divide off and we’ve got to be the ones who you know are going through this journey. Sadly, the response Ability falls on us to be mature enough and to be able to have these conversations with other people and love them right where they’re at, despite where we’re at, not belittle them or anything like that. Because when it comes time for them to have their doubts or their questions, you want to be able to make sure they understand that it’s a safe thing. And not to be turned away from push them further into the things that you came out of,

Elaine Johnston 11:27
well, if you can’t be comfortable with other people, how can you expect other people to be comfortable with you? If you’re not a safe place for somebody else? How can somebody be a safe place for you? Right? And, again, just understanding that things look different for different people. And everyone has a reason as to why something works or doesn’t work, right. But I feel like it all comes down to is it rooted in love? And if it’s not, maybe we need to reevaluate. With that looks like

Cody Johnston 12:01
right. I think it’s a hard thing because you want to be solution focused. You don’t want to always just talk about problems, right? Like the goal isn’t to church bash or to people bash or anything like that. But it’s a frustrating Life to Live whenever so many times it feels so lonely. Yeah, it’s such a desolate place. It’s such a dark place. A lot of times it’s a cold place. I mean, that’s kind of the whole principle of nomads. You know, the whole idea behind the word Nomad is like, being in your home, or right, like it’s the desert, it’s scorching during the day, and freezing at night. It’s hard, it’s dry, it’s barren, but at the same time, like you feel like you have no roots, you have no home because you’re always on the move. You know, you haven’t found that place that spiritual well, or if you have, like you’re scared to put down roots, a lot of times, it can be dangerous to stay there. Like there is time for serious time for all of that. And that’s, you know, that’s the gist of what reconstruction or restaurant Is Right, yeah. But I think that like even those words and of itself can become divisive. It’s like, oh, you’re deconstructing right now. Like you’re in this place this dark place you need to put down roots and reconstruct, you know, it’s like that death and birth thing. Yeah. And in reality, I think it’s kind of the beauty of die to yourself daily. It’s a perpetual state of deconstructing and reconstructing. It’s a perpetual state. It’s kind of like house maintenance, right? Yeah, you don’t. If you don’t paint your shutters, sooner or later, the paints going to wear off in there and start rotting. There’s always wearing down. And the same thing spiritually.

Elaine Johnston 13:40
And part of that is you can’t deconstruct everything all at once. It’s a daily gradual process. You can have a whole bunch of questions, but you can only really tackle one thing at a time. And I feel like you should always be asking questions. You should never Not be asking questions. But there does come a time where you have an answer that works for you currently, and it’s okay. If later on, it doesn’t work for you anymore. But you go with what feels good in the moment, what feels good to you what feels like God’s love or what feels pure, what feels wholesome to you,

Cody Johnston 14:20
whatever produces for the Spirit in you.

Elaine Johnston 14:23
Yeah. And then you can go on to the next topic, the next question and then kind of figuring out, why doesn’t this resonate with you? Why isn’t this working for you? What experiences are you going through and really evaluating yourself being aware of the situation, being aware of the people involved, and how it got to that place? And figuring out okay, well, my foundation is Rocky, but why, why is my foundation Rocky and just really getting to the root of the problem

Cody Johnston 14:59
or at least The root of the thought behind it Yeah, maybe not necessarily. It may not be a problem as much as just a curiosity or it could be a I guess the word problem is like a trigger word. But like a lot of times problem looks more like, I guess less obstacle, right? less like a something wrong with you and more like something wrong with the foundation itself.

Elaine Johnston 15:23
Yeah, in some instances. It’s not necessarily the problem at hand, but how we view it. Like you said, it may not be a problem. Our mindset, may be looking at it as problematic. Where we are spiritually or where we are even politically, going outside of the spiritual realm of things. Understanding like maybe the way we’re approaching this isn’t working,

Cody Johnston 15:51
something you were saying, is how we are to be in unity. The body of Christ has to be in unity, right? Christianity as a whole or if you aspire To be like Christ, you aspire to unity. But unity of mind and unity unity of spirit or fewer things. Yeah. Or specifically what you were saying is,

Elaine Johnston 16:10
it’s not always about being like minded but more of like hearted. Right?

Cody Johnston 16:13
I think that’s a beautiful place. And I feel like that’s the epitome of what it means to find a solution. The beauty because if we can respect where each other is at, and I know a lot of times people in this round in our realm that you know, you construction reconstruction, questions, doubts, all that I feel like a lot of times feel like they don’t get that mutual respect. And that’s a big problem.

Elaine Johnston 16:42
When sometimes there’s not a mutual respect because we don’t respect where we are ourselves. That’s true. Like we need to find beauty and we’re we’re at to help us find the beauty and where other people are at even if it doesn’t look like where we’re at.

Cody Johnston 16:58
Right. That’s good. That’s Well, but you’re the Trailblazer. Yeah. I mean, if you look back throughout Christian history, you know, all of the people that radically changed Christianity or forwarded the progress of the gospel were labeled as fringe Christians. Yeah, heretics. doubters.

Elaine Johnston 17:23
Well and even in someone that was Jesus,

Cody Johnston 17:25
without Yeah, absolutely. It was fringe. Looking Paul, he killed people because they were going against the religious system

Elaine Johnston 17:31
and Gods like Jesus is like, yep, that one. Even the whole notion behind Doubting Thomas having the questions having the doubts, God’s like, hey, gonna use you for that.

Cody Johnston 17:41
Yeah. And even then, like, he wasn’t like, I rebuke you for doubting. It’s like, here come. Like, here’s your proof. Here’s what you need

Elaine Johnston 17:47
that scripture where it says, like mercy to those who doubt,

Cody Johnston 17:50
it’s hard because when you start looking at solutions, it’s like, well, what do we do? And really, the whole bulk of it is the responsibility falls back on us. Yeah. And that’s like a sucky thing to think about. Just being blunt. But it’s also a beautiful thing. Because we are the trail blazers, the bushwhackers the nomads. Yeah. And you know, I love the parallel by Jesus went to the desert. Yeah. You know, he had to go, he had to get along. And he had to hash some things out with Satan or this satanic mindset, even, you know, if you look at Satan as a mindset, like many ancient texts do, and you turn away from this, like specific, like just I don’t know, just to humor me, you know, for a second if Jesus went to the desert, and if Satan is a mindset, which is if you read the Book of Enoch, which I understand like it’s not canonized text, but like it had major influence. I just did an episode about it. And like it had a major influence on Jesus’s teaching, like it was actively used in that time, as you know, like scriptural references and everything else. He was used as a parallel and it says Satan’s not Satan. So the word literally translates to, you know, like vicious. malicious thoughts

Elaine Johnston 19:01
and his if if you’re going with that his thought life was against him

Cody Johnston 19:06
right? Like literally Jesus knowing that he is God. Up on this mountain. Yeah. And say in Satan you say tanning this negative mindset the human or maybe even the god mind. Let’s be honest like yeah who’s to say God isn’t tempted? Yeah, who’s to say like, don’t eat that. Just say, really literally dog reaches out and tries to eat a random tree limb or bush who’s to say that like God Himself as Jesus isn’t like having these bad thoughts because he’s fully God and fully man to experience Him himself to put himself where we heart we were right. And in his mind, that little voice so we all know so well

Elaine Johnston 19:46
using the Bible against it,

Cody Johnston 19:47
right? He’s literally using all his training. Isn’t that deconstruction?

Elaine Johnston 19:50
Yeah, yeah, Jesus deconstructed. I

Cody Johnston 19:53
mean, he’s literally like he was trained as a rabbi, right? Yeah. He didn’t start his ministry. till after He was baptized as a Jew. Yeah. He didn’t start his ministry ministry until after the desert until after that place. And he had to go out there and face that mindset and go, you know what, I could stand up here and throw myself off here and God would catch me. I can rule over this world if I choose. So I’m God in the flesh, I have the ability to rule over anything right now. If I just so choose. The scripture itself was used back against him, in his mind echoing

Elaine Johnston 20:31
parallels to Adam and Eve. Sure, they were already with God, they were already like God, they were already communing and walking with God. They didn’t know any differently. That if Satan if the snake is a mindset, that it was their own mindset attacking and saying, well, that’s not really what God said or you are actually with God and and their own mindset was against them. Right there. negative thought life started to take over

Cody Johnston 21:00
Even some beautiful parallel selves you have like, they were not to eat of that fruit in like Jesus himself was like, in a fast, kind of parallels a little bit. I mean, there’s a lot of beautiful parallels, or you can kind of get into but I just think like, taking a second to sit on that like Jesus, facing this internal dialogue, this internal mindset, this negative self, right? Literally, it was Jesus pit against himself going it was God against God, in essence, you know, he had to know in that moment, like, what was truth he had to decipher for the scriptures, because even the scripture were being used against him. And he had to take that, that law that he was trained in, right, like he was trained in law. And in that mindset, in that moment, he had to go from spiritual milk to spiritual meat, or love and he chose love and then he was able to come out of that. And that’s whenever he started his ministry. That’s whenever all these things he went and found the disciples the, you know, the societal worst among them. And took them in like, I guess I should, maybe not the worst, but the ones look Down on often, and began all of this and said you know what? I deconstructed what I once knew. And reverse this wow Jesus deconstructed listen to that. And I think that’s right there like when you ever you just kind of get that belief in your heart and like realize that it shows you how much beauty there is. and healing in that light helps you change that mindset of like, for one it helps change the mindset about yourself. Just say like, you’re going through the same thing Jesus Himself went through Yeah, that’s why he says died himself day, you know, die to yourself daily. That’s like, the whole beauty in the process. And I think that is a good foundational building block or at least, maybe a little flame to bring with you on the journey. Because foundations are kind of a rough topic, but

Elaine Johnston 22:47
when the Bible says like, test the spirit, sure, like, test God ask God questions, walk with Him say is this in love is this impurity is this and post them you know is this and goodness and all Those things. The Bible literally says like, ask and ye shall find, like seek.

Cody Johnston 23:07
Yeah. See gastroc? And sometimes I think we find the answer, but we choose not to look at it, because it may not look like what we expected,

Elaine Johnston 23:14
or we don’t like the answer.

Cody Johnston 23:15
Yeah. On that goes to both sides of the coin. Right. So how do we take that what we just talked about? And like, how do we start? Here in 2020? Is like we’re moving forward. You mean like, what do we, what does it look like? Just start focusing more on the answers? Because I mean, I know the initial thing is like, oh, we’re going to not just talk bad we’re going to actually focus on like, how to change your mindset and everything. But I know giving place I know, we’ve been doing that to some extent, what does that look like going forward? Like? What are some key changes that we can make to advance that even further?

Elaine Johnston 23:49
For me, like the easiest part thing is just Oh, just walk in love or just a walk and understanding and without judgment without criticism.

Cody Johnston 23:57
That’s something like I’m bad about like I’m I’m good. arguing and debating or whatever you want to call it. And I can be very persuasive. And I know that about myself, like, I’ll be honest and like, I know I can, you know, get my point across well, by giving room like we were saying earlier, like when I’m having conversations online with people, give them room to grow to, but just giving people room to express themselves.

Elaine Johnston 24:25
Well, and that goes back to tools like the enneagram or the love languages, of getting to people’s level and accepting them where they are at

Cody Johnston 24:38
which Christ in essence, right,

Elaine Johnston 24:40
like accepting them, where they’re at loving them, where they’re at, listening to them where they’re at, and being able to commune with them you know, some people’s love language is physical or some people’s love language is affirmation affirming people in that and so I think Using not in our conversations of saying, Hey, I affirm this or Hey, accept you in this, thank you for sharing this, and bringing out the positive aspects instead of saying, oh, you’re wrong in this and let me tell you why. of, Hey, I may disagree with this, but thank you for being brave enough. Thank you for sharing your heart. Thank you for allowing me to have this conversation with you. And it being less about Oh, other people are the enemy.

Cody Johnston 25:28
Right? And some people are gonna take offense to that still. But ultimately, if you can word it, like even the most, like fundamental, even the most like polar opposite, should be able to look at them and say, You know what, like, I do not agree, necessarily. And I think there’s beauty in that too, like, being honest. And this is something that’s been on my heart today specifically, but being honest, not because you feel you’re right.

Elaine Johnston 25:53
What you told me, you’re honest, not because you don’t care but because you do

Cody Johnston 25:57
right. By being honest, not being You don’t care about how people feel about the situation. And don’t care if what you say hurts them because you genuinely do. And they deserve your honesty, even if that’s not what they want to hear,

Elaine Johnston 26:10
even if that I was gonna say even if that cuts a relationship, at least you can say, Hey, I was honest in this in love,

Cody Johnston 26:17
in love. And that’s the key thing too, is like, that’s how, you know the differences.

Elaine Johnston 26:20
I didn’t tear somebody apart, right?

Cody Johnston 26:23
And you can respect them, even if what they feel is different, even if what they view is different, even if how they believe is a bit different, you know, and whenever you can do that, it opens up room. I think that’s amazing. It just it opens up room for people to have conversation to be able to have it kind of brings oxygen back into the atmosphere, you know,

Elaine Johnston 26:44
it makes it less of a hostile situation. It gives people room to breathe and be comfortable.

Cody Johnston 26:50
For sure. And like you said, even if it ends up killing off a relationship, even if it ends up hurting this relationship or not even hurting but like To the point of like, the two of you cannot fellowship together community together. That goes back to the thing where you’re saying is like, you can still be one in spirit and not be one in mind. Yeah,

Elaine Johnston 27:12
you can be authentic and honest and transparent and vulnerable and

Cody Johnston 27:16
genuinely care about each other. Yeah, even though you just cannot see Hi,

Elaine Johnston 27:20
it only matters in part of what our physical connectedness looks like. It matters more about our spiritual connectedness looks like

finding the gym and finding it

Cody Johnston 27:52
past that hatred. There’s somewhere down there. There is a hope there’s truth. And a lot of people I mean, I know a lot of people use the gospel as a weapon. Because they want to be right. And they’re in the root of it is they want to preach it someone to be right or to be better

Elaine Johnston 28:08
but because they want to be validated,

Cody Johnston 28:11
right, it all comes back to that. But at the core of even that the gospel itself is love. Even if it’s they want you to feel that love or on the flip side they themselves want to feel that love which isn’t self validation, right because love validates love embraces you know love is patient kind gentle. does not envy does not boast is not proud is not rude? Is not self seeking is not easily angered it keeps no regular records of wrongs. Always trusts always hopes, always protects, always perseveres. Love never fails, right? So I got all those right. If love is all of those things, that’s all positive traits, right? So even if someone is preaching, even the street preacher, yelling and people, they’re going to hell ultimately, you’re preaching You know, even if the root of it’s like, oh, I’m not preaching at you, because I actually want you to not go to hell. It’s because I want to show that I have like some kind of spiritual advantage on you or I’m better than you.

Unknown Speaker 29:11
They don’t want to go to hell,

Cody Johnston 29:12
right? Well, and they need that validation, because they haven’t felt that loves embrace. And that’s still what they’re searching for you. We’re all searching for that. Every one of us, you know, and those of us who have been through this process, whether whatever stage of it we’re in which, like I said earlier, it’s cyclical, right? It’s perpetual. So once you’re in that cycle, you never really get out. But no matter what your structure you live in, is looking like whatever. If you’re in the maintenance phase, the remodel, whatever it is, bulldozing it down to start fresh, it comes to our responsibility, because we’re the ones that see that. And I’m not trying to say like, oh, we’re the enlightened ones or anything. I don’t I don’t think it’s that

Elaine Johnston 29:53
but we all can be enlightened in that.

Cody Johnston 29:56
Right when I think it’s just like when you feel the loving embrace We’re no longer matters about what you’ve done, what you do, All that matters is living like Christ and spreading that love. It becomes your responsibility. It’s kind of like when Paul says, you know, where there is ignorance of sin sin is not counted or where there’s ignorance of the law, the law is not counted. Well, we’re no longer ignorant to that. And then it becomes our responsibility, even if that means I mean, just like those who’ve been, and I don’t want to use this comparison lightly, but those who have been martyred stone for their beliefs, cast out for their beliefs, the troublemakers, you know, they’re the ones who ultimately made the change or made the difference.

Elaine Johnston 30:43
And going back to the it’s not an us versus then there’s only us. So that’s not that Oh, we’re, I am more enlightened or I am more woke or whatever, whatever word you put in place for that. It’s we all can be we all can walk in Live as an us,

Cody Johnston 31:02
collectively, everyone, thanks for joining us this week. I hope you enjoyed this different episode. Let us know what you think about it. Hopefully the audio quality was pretty decent. I know it was a little crunchy or than normal. But I honestly and sincerely just love having this conversation.

Elaine Johnston 31:19
And also let us know if you want us to do more of these types of episodes too. I feel like this is one of our more favorite episodes to do. So if you want to hear more of off the grid nomadic episodes, please let us know.

Cody Johnston 31:33
Yes, in the truest sense. Of course, the best way to do that is to reach out us in nomads. Once again, we would love to have your part details are in the show notes below. We love you guys and as always be brave, be bold and be reckless. We’ll talk soon